[PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

[PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par Aeyrs » 06 Août 2017 4:21

I'm in a game: http://boiteajeux.net/jeux/alc/partie.php?id=9966

In this game two theories are published that should make a null potion: feather plus mandrake.
I know that feather is actually a null potion with scorpion. I have chosen to debunk. Choosing feather plus scorpion I do not have the option to choose null potion. If feather plus scorpion are a null potion then feather and mandrake should be in conflict as one or the other is false. How can I debunk?
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Re: Bug with conflict generation via debunking

Message par frederic.moulis » 06 Août 2017 10:01

Hi Aeyrs,

that's a good point you're raising, but actually, you're unfortunately wrong.

To be precise, I would have agreed with you, but this boardgamegeek topic says something else...

I'll only quote the most interesting part of the discussion, that is the answer from the game designer :
Matúš Kotry (game designer) a écrit :Hi everyone. I see that the rulebook is not very clear about a case like this.

But the exact outcome would be that there will only be conflict between the theories included in the experiment, so in your example it is Scorpion and Fern.

The other two conflicts would fall into a category described as "Invalid Demonstrations" on the 15th page of the rulebook, because those are not a direct consequence of the experiment. Those conflicts are derived from other information on the theory board, just like in the example from the rulebook under the "Invalid Demonstrations" heading (I know that in that example the demonstrated conflict is much much more vague than in this case, but that's because no-one really considered a situation like this one until now).

So the general rule is, that in the debunking the conflict must be a direct logical consequence of the experiment shown and the theories written about the two ingredients, which participated in the experiment. No other information should be considered to demonstrate the conflict or to debunk a theory. (So practicaly, the option A from Robert Stewart's post is correct).

Of course the other information may be considered by other players in choosing the experiments for future debuks. :)


So no, you cannot generate a conflict between feather and mandrake by mixing feather and scorpio, sorry :)
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par Aeyrs » 06 Août 2017 23:13

Thanks for the link. Been doing that wrong the whole time then.
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par Aeyrs » 07 Août 2017 0:07

Apparently you can also choose the two that are incorrect: mandrake and feather in the game above then choose null to establish the same conflict.
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par frederic.moulis » 07 Août 2017 3:58

yes : if the mix does not give soup, then at least one of the theories is wrong
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par Arsenij » 16 Mars 2018 11:17

Hi,

I don't know if I should write here or post a new thread. My situation was very similar to this, and only now I read this strange rule, because I tried something similar. Although this rule is very strange - why would I loose points instead of getting them for showing other people obviously, that there is a conflict, but the game ignores it and punishes me :D But that's another question to the developer.

I have another question then, about the user interface, that could have prevented me from posting this experiment (and disclosing information and loosing instead of gaining points). Could you eliminate the option, because it does not make any sense in this case, considering those rules. The option in question is:

I chose two ingredients, one of which has a published theory and the other hasn't yet. I should not get an option of NULL potion then. If it's not possible, considering this rule explanation, to debunk anything this way. Since I got that option, I thought 'wow, cool, game probably anticipates that I can debunk this way' and did it and disclosed information and lost a point.

Game in question is:
http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/alc/partie.php?id=15690
At the time there was +++ theory on blue flower, --- theory on greet plant and no theory on gray root. I chose blue flower and gray root and one of the option was NULL, I chose it, and it said it's correct, but I lost a point and everybody got valuable info...

Arsenij
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par frederic.moulis » 16 Mars 2018 11:29

Arsenij a écrit :Hi, I don't know if I should write here or post a new thread.

Well, you could have divided your message in 2 ;) but that's ok

Arsenij a écrit :My situation was very similar to this, and only now I read this strange rule, because I tried something similar. Although this rule is very strange - why would I loose points instead of getting them for showing other people obviously, that there is a conflict, but the game ignores it and punishes me :D But that's another question to the developer.

You probably meant to the designer ;)
You will lose points/reputation only if you do wrong "actions", so I don't understand your issue.

Arsenij a écrit :I have another question then, about the user interface, that could have prevented me from posting this experiment (and disclosing information and loosing instead of gaining points). Could you eliminate the option, because it does not make any sense in this case, considering those rules. The option in question is:

I chose two ingredients, one of which has a published theory and the other hasn't yet. I should not get an option of NULL potion then. If it's not possible, considering this rule explanation, to debunk anything this way. Since I got that option, I thought 'wow, cool, game probably anticipates that I can debunk this way' and did it and disclosed information and lost a point.

Game in question is:
http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/alc/partie.php?id=15690
At the time there was +++ theory on blue flower, --- theory on greet plant and no theory on gray root. I chose blue flower and gray root and one of the option was NULL, I chose it, and it said it's correct, but I lost a point and everybody got valuable info...

Arsenij

You're right, the GUI should not have given you the option of null potion. Now, if you chose it, it's because you actually thought the result you imagined would debunk a theory. So you made a mistake and should have posted your message BEFORE doing anything.
Now, it's too late :)
I'll fix this GUI issue soon.

Thanks for reporting :poucehaut:
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par Ambroisie » 16 Mars 2018 12:19

J'essaie d'obéir en voyant PLEASE READ (même si ça ne s'adresse pas à moi !) mais un peu difficile ... Cependant je ne résiste pas à traduire, tout en les précisant, les appellations suivantes : "blue flower" : gentiane bleue. "Grey root" : mandragore. Je trouve ça plus poétique ! :clown: :boulet:
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par covadis » 16 Mars 2018 12:33

Ambroisie a écrit :J'essaie d'obéir en voyant PLEASE READ (même si ça ne s'adresse pas à moi !) mais un peu difficile ... Cependant je ne résiste pas à traduire, tout en les précisant, les appellations suivantes : "blue flower" : gentiane bleue. "Grey root" : mandragore. Je trouve ça plus poétique ! :clown: :boulet:

Je percute seulement maintenant que je pensais à gentiane bleue à chaque fois qu'on me parlait de fleur et à la gentiane jaune à chaque fois qu'on me parlait de récolte !!! :lol:
Il y a effectivement une énorme différence entre ces 2 plantes... je retourne m’occuper de ma récolte de gentiane jaune, avec elle je ne me trompe pas dans mes potions :shots:
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Re: [PLEASE READ] Master debunking and generating conflicts

Message par frederic.moulis » 17 Mars 2018 9:23

frederic.moulis a écrit :
Arsenij a écrit :Hi, I don't know if I should write here or post a new thread.

Well, you could have divided your message in 2 ;) but that's ok

Arsenij a écrit :My situation was very similar to this, and only now I read this strange rule, because I tried something similar. Although this rule is very strange - why would I loose points instead of getting them for showing other people obviously, that there is a conflict, but the game ignores it and punishes me :D But that's another question to the developer.

You probably meant to the designer ;)
You will lose points/reputation only if you do wrong "actions", so I don't understand your issue.

Arsenij a écrit :I have another question then, about the user interface, that could have prevented me from posting this experiment (and disclosing information and loosing instead of gaining points). Could you eliminate the option, because it does not make any sense in this case, considering those rules. The option in question is:

I chose two ingredients, one of which has a published theory and the other hasn't yet. I should not get an option of NULL potion then. If it's not possible, considering this rule explanation, to debunk anything this way. Since I got that option, I thought 'wow, cool, game probably anticipates that I can debunk this way' and did it and disclosed information and lost a point.

Game in question is:
http://www.boiteajeux.net/jeux/alc/partie.php?id=15690
At the time there was +++ theory on blue flower, --- theory on greet plant and no theory on gray root. I chose blue flower and gray root and one of the option was NULL, I chose it, and it said it's correct, but I lost a point and everybody got valuable info...

Arsenij


You're right, the GUI should not have given you the option of null potion. Now, if you chose it, it's because you actually thought the result you imagined would debunk a theory. So you made a mistake and should have posted your message BEFORE doing anything.
Now, it's too late :)
I'll fix this GUI issue soon.

Thanks for reporting :poucehaut:

Fixed
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