Bug: Agricola 2902871

Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Grumpkin » 04 Nov 2017 20:53

I would like to cook a cattle with my fireplace, but the end of round 12 cattle breeder effect does not seem to give me the option. Could I get some help? Thanks.

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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par diplojak » 04 Nov 2017 22:20

turned into 3 food
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Grumpkin » 05 Nov 2017 0:35

Thank you!
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Lieven » 05 Nov 2017 16:08

@grumpkin

Did you cook the baby animal just after breeding in round 12? If that's the case, then it's not a bug.

The rules state that you can never cook a baby animal.
That means you can't cook any cattle (or any other animals) in the breeding phase of rounds 4, 7, 9, 11, 13 and 14.
You'll have to wait until the next round to be able to cook it.

The cattle breeder adds an extra breeding phase at the end of round 12. If i looked at your game, you had 3 cattle at the end of round 12.
Breeding gave you one extra animal. You had no space available on your farmyard to put it (only your home and 2 stables, so you could house only 3 animals)
Following the rules, you should then have returned the baby animal to the general supply (without receiving any (food) compensation).

I agree it would be different when you had played a card that gives you an animal at the start of a round.
Then you can indeed cook it immediately, because that animal is not considered a baby animal.

So, if you wanted to get 3 food for a cattle, you should have cooked the 3rd cattle during round 12.
At the end of round 12, you would then only have had 2 cattle, which breed one, giving 3.
Again, you wouldn't be able to cook the baby animal till round 13, but at least you would have had space to put it.

So if the answer on my first question is yes, you shouldn't have received 3 food.

Just my 2 cents :wink:
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Striker » 06 Nov 2017 19:59

I haven't looked at the game history and, whilst I agree with your analysis, with your example, if you had 3 Cattle immediately before the Cattle Breeder and nowhere to breed the Cattle, it would run away.
However, immediately before the Cattle Breeder breed, I believe you would still be allowed to cook 1 Cattle to make room for the baby animal. If THAT was the situation, then perhaps it is a bug as the system should allow the chance to cook animals (at any time except after breeding).
My 2 cents added as well.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Lieven » 07 Nov 2017 19:00

@Striker: I totally agree, but I was talking about converting the animal just after breeding (see first sentence of my previous post).

If Grumpkin wanted to convert the animal, he should have done so in his last turn of round 12. I don't think there's a possibility to convert it afterwards, before breeding.
This is because in a normal harvest, you first harvest your fields, then feed your family, and after that comes breeding.
Then of course, you can convert the animal during feeding phase, but at the end of round 12, there is not a feeding phase, only breeding.

So to me, there shouldn't be an option to convert it just before breeding, instead you should remember to do it in the work phase of round 12.
If you don't, I'm sorry, but then you can't expect to get the food.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Striker » 07 Nov 2017 20:00

I understand that is what you meant but I think the opposite to you, you can convert animals before breeding.
The rules state "... animals may not be converted into Food immediately after the birth". I don't think there is anything in the rules about converting before breeding.
In most cases, it is during a Harvest and the Feeding comes before Breeding so it is natural that you would convert animals to Feed your Family members, then Breed. The Cattle Breeder is different, it becomes a 'turn' so you can convert before to make room and then Cattle breed but you cannot convert until your next turn, thereby needing to have room.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Grumpkin » 07 Nov 2017 20:37

@Lieven

I believe I understand both of your positions, but I agree with Striker. Lieven, how would you explain that you can convert animals to food at the beginning of a round to pay food costs for beginning of round effects (e.g. occupations played by Scholar or fences built by Fence Deliveryman)? My understanding is that non-newborn animals may be converted to food at all times during the game other than end of game circumstances that have been explicitly ruled upon. Nevertheless, now that I know that this is how Cattle and Pig Breeder cards are programmed, I intend to remember to convert before the end of the previous round so as to avoid requiring admin assistance (though I continue to believe the option to cook before occupation-enabled breeding is legal).
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Lieven » 08 Nov 2017 20:34

Lieven, how would you explain that you can convert animals to food at the beginning of a round to pay food costs for beginning of round effects (e.g. occupations played by Scholar or fences built by Fence Deliveryman)?


Good point. I've looked it up in the rules I have here at home. They state:
Each round (1-14) consits of the following 4 phases. After some rounds follows harvest time.

The four phases are:
  • Start of the round: a new round card is added. All actions that have to be executed each round or at the beginning of a round (as a result of text on cards), take now place.
  • Adding phase, new goods and animals are added.
  • Work phase: all players carry out there actions, starting with the starting player and continuing clockwise.
  • Returning home phase: each player returns his family members (that were used to carry out actions) to the rooms of his home.

So to answer your question, I think the first phase (in bold) is important. That seems to be a moment to convert animals to food. That moment doesn't exist for the cattle breeder. For the sake of completeness I will also include the rules of the breeding phase:

A player which has at least 2 animals of the same animal type, gets 1 new animal of this type, provided he can put it somewhere on his farmyard (or on suitable cards like Animal Yard or Forest Pasture). The involved animals (both the parents and the youngster) cannot be converted to food immediatly.

Sorry if the English used is not perfect.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Grumpkin » 08 Nov 2017 23:05

Sorry, I don't find that convincing. The portion you have bolded seems to in no way be enabling the cooking of animals, especially because of the words "have to be executed." In fact, I think those words support the freedom to cook according to the necessities of the player (e.g. cooking to pay food costs and cooking to make space or to gain food from the various "Whisperer" occupations) since cooking is not an action that "have to be executed" but nevertheless can be executed in these cases.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par jouons » 09 Nov 2017 3:36

I looked at the game when this thread was posted.
Grumpkin had 3 cattle in his farm.
It's totally allowed to cook one adult cattle to have place for a newborn.
The card says you can can cook at any moment.
2 cattle stay that can make a baby.

The bug was on the interface, not allowing cooking, diplo fixed that.
(The interface must not be easy to code, with each card being a new part of program :?)
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Lieven » 10 Nov 2017 0:22

@jouons: Sorry, but I don't think you can cook animals at any moment. You can only cook animals when it's your turn.

That brings us to the root of the problem: should you get an extra turn before the effects of the cattle breeder (to allow cooking to make room on your farmyard)?
I know most of you would say yes, but I don't think so.

Normally you get only turns for the amount of your family members + one (to allow cooking for beginning of round effects).

The reason you get that extra turn at the beginning of the round seems logical:
Assume you have 2 sheep in a mini-pasture (a pasture of one farmyard space) in round 9.
During harvest time, you get a newborn sheep. You can put that in your home (provided there's no other animal in your home).
At the beginning of round 10, you get an extra sheep because of the sheep whisperer. If cooking would not be allowed at this moment, you would have no benefit (it would return to the general supply because you can't put it anywhere on your farmyard), just because you didn't foresee space for 2 extra animals in round 9. Of course this is difficult to foresee, and that's probably the reason why all players get an extra turn at the beginning of a round if needed.

But in this case, honestly I don't see why you should get an extra turn.
You know you have to foresee room to house the newborn animals after breeding. That includes all rounds ending with a harvest, but that should not include round 12 in case of the cattle breeder?
After all, it's you who played the cattle breeder, not one of your opponents. You have to make sure you know which cards you have played and what effects they have.
The computer version of the game already takes care of many things, like giving you an extra grain when you take one after playing the corn scoop, etc.

Also, each extra turn slows the game down, so if having an extra turn is not really needed, I'd rather skip it.
Agricola is a rather difficult game, if you wan't to make it easy, go ahead, but that will probably make it less enjoyable.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Striker » 10 Nov 2017 5:33

Lieven a écrit :Normally you get only turns for the amount of your family members + one (to allow cooking for beginning of round effects).

By that same logic, you can allow cooking for end of round effects as well. It is exactly the same effect whether it is the start of the round or the end of the round. There is no difference between the two.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Oldie » 10 Nov 2017 6:15

Lieven a écrit :@jouons: Sorry, but I don't think you can cook animals at any moment. You can only cook animals when it's your turn.


And how do you support that statement? The rules says anytime. And anytime is anytime even when it's not your turn.
It's not the case here on boiteajeux for obvious reasons, but that doesn't change the rules. You are allowed to cook your animals and/or vegetables at anytime with the exception of the breeding phase.
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Re: Bug: Agricola 2902871

Message par Lieven » 10 Nov 2017 8:09

@Oldie: You're probably right about that anytime, although you won't get any advantage compared to cooking in your own turn only.

Oldie a écrit :You are allowed to cook your animals and/or vegetables at anytime with the exception of the breeding phase.


Cattle breeder = breeding phase (comes immediately after the end of round 12) = you are not allowed to cook animals.
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